Growth In Reverse

AUDIO - Summit Recap V2
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[00:00:00] Chenell Basilio: Real life friends are like, what are you doing? Talking about emails. That's fun. More people came up to me and said, I love your podcasts or I love your YouTube channel. Then they did the newsletter. It's so cool to talk to other people who like write content and like spend 30 hours researching something and then put it into like a long form article.

[00:00:17] Dylan Redekop: You need good content to stay alive. I think that's just what it comes down to.

[00:00:20] Chenell Basilio: Huge newsletters are consistently saying this, but nobody wants to listen.

All right. Welcome back to the growth in reverse podcasts. I'm Chenell.

[00:00:34] Dylan Redekop: And I'm Dylan.

[00:00:35] Chenell Basilio: And today we're going to talk about some takeaways and things that we've seen on the back end of the first annual newsletter marketing summit that happened in Austin, Texas. I got back over the weekend and I thought. It would be fun if we just sat down and kind of talk through what happened there, uh, what I learned, some trends I'm seeing and what we've kind of taken away from it.

[00:00:56] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I'm excited because I wasn't there. And so I saw all the pictures [00:01:00] and, uh, and people on stage, including you. Um, very jealous that I couldn't make it, but it looked like a great time. It looked like a really successful event. So, you know, hat tip to Matt McGarry and his team putting that on and yeah, I'm just going to be really curious to kind of get firsthand feedback from somebody who not only was there as yourself, but somebody who also was like.

Speaking there, which you were. Um, and I also saw a lot of people, um, summarizing your talk and saying how great it was. So we might have to touch on that a little bit too.

[00:01:28] Chenell Basilio: Okay. Well, that'll be on your end. Cause I'm not going to talk about myself. So

[00:01:31] Dylan Redekop: I know you won't, so I will prompt it. Don't worry.

[00:01:34] Chenell Basilio: All right.

Awesome. Um, so I guess the first thing that I took away from this, just as like a personal anecdote was that I think podcasts and YouTube are like the trust builders, like more people came up to me and said, I love your podcast. Or I love your YouTube channel than they did the newsletter, which as a writer, I was like, but like, I get it because we get to kind of like be in your ears, like while we're talking through all these things.

Um, [00:02:00] so it's just. I don't know. It's just so fascinating. And I'm just couldn't be happier that we started this and are continuing to keep it going. So

[00:02:06] Dylan Redekop: I love, I love that feedback. That's really, really interesting feedback as well. That people would say that over the newsletter too, which you've been publishing for over two years now.

[00:02:14] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. And I don't know if it's like, because it's a newer thing, a newer channel and people are so excited about it or, or what, but I think it's probably a mix of both things.

[00:02:24] Dylan Redekop: I think it, I think it just puts a. A voice and a face to writing that you're reading, right? So, um, you're going to be more inclined to approach somebody you've probably seen and heard because you know, their vibe and you kind of know what to expect to some degree from their personality, unless they're totally faking it on camera and they're complete.

You know, assholes in your life, but you kind of have a vibe and what you expect as opposed to a writer who you're like, you've seen like their byline photo and you've written there or read their newsletter maybe. And then you're kind of like, I don't know how to approach this person, what they're like, what vibe, um, they're going to give off.

So I could see that being something where it's going to build a little bit more affinity with people.

[00:02:59] Chenell Basilio: I think that's [00:03:00] very true. People missed you, Dylan. They were like, where's Dylan? Is Dylan here? It's like, no, next time.

[00:03:04] Dylan Redekop: Next time. Next

[00:03:05] Chenell Basilio: time. You got to get him to venture out of Canada, out of Canada. Yes.

[00:03:09] Dylan Redekop: Yes. I will, I will try to go to my igloo here. Yeah.

[00:03:17] Chenell Basilio: Uh, so funny. Yeah. I think the other thing that I saw a lot of, well, first I just can't stop thinking I, I was sitting, I meant to go to a couple of sessions and I missed a few, um, but I was sitting there talking to someone I've been. You know, going back and forth with, since I started the newsletter, uh, Justin Gordon, he writes just go grind.

He is also really relaunching his podcast here soon, but he writes deep dives into startup founders. And I was like, it's so cool to talk to other people who like write content and like spend 30 hours researching something and then put it into like a long form article. Um, and then we were standing there talking and up walks, this guy named Jermaine who had.

Neither of us had ever met before and he also wrote deep dives and I was like, [00:04:00] yes, this is so cool. Um, I just looked at his website. He's actually written 1825 consecutive posts on biographies and entrepreneurship really interesting. Um,

[00:04:10] Dylan Redekop: 1825 like days or weeks or

[00:04:13] Chenell Basilio: I don't know That's a good question.

That's quite the

[00:04:15] Dylan Redekop: streak.

[00:04:15] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. You can click on like posts and it shows like every month. Wow. This is wild. Go Jermaine. Yeah, seriously. Um, but that was so fun just to like have three people who write deep dives talking about this workflow and like our research processes and like what we do every week, essentially.

I thought that was a, a fun little conversation that I was a part of. Really enjoyed that.

[00:04:37] Dylan Redekop: I love it. Your note sums it up here in, in our show notes that we, your internal notes, where people who write deep dives are cool. I think that's just like, nice. Very, very well put. Yeah. And there's, I think, I think it also goes to say that, um, We've talked a little bit, we've touched on exclusives and we're probably going to do a whole episode on exclusives and deep dives are like a version of that.

And I think [00:05:00] my hunch is if you, you know, forward thinking people who are doing these more exclusive content, um, deep research and, you know, are able to actually write well as well as that's kind of a key component too. Um, I think that's just going to be more and more valuable for, for the future in terms of getting attention, getting subscribers and, and, um, having content that people are going to be willing to share.

So I think. Those people who are writing deep dives are kind of on to something.

[00:05:24] Chenell Basilio: I think so too. And you just learn better about what the person has done and like how they actually grew or did whatever thing you're writing about. Um, yeah, it's fascinating. So I guess does this lead us into content is king.

This is like one of the main themes that I heard and talked about myself. Um,

[00:05:41] Dylan Redekop: yeah, either we could start with you sharing why content is king. Uh, and your little, your cool acronym that you've come up with for. For content, um, valuable content.

[00:05:50] Chenell Basilio: Yeah.

[00:05:51] Dylan Redekop: Um, so why don't we start there and then you can lead us into other reasons why you've come to that.

[00:05:56] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. So I was creating my, uh, [00:06:00] deck, I guess you will call it for my talk at newsletter marketing summit. And I was like, Oh, I could share so many cool growth stories and like ideas. But every time I do that, I feel like it doesn't work as well. And the reason is like the under arching theme is that like, if your content isn't good, like none of these growth, quote, unquote, hacks are going to work.

I was just sharing how like insanely valuable content, which is like IV content. Um, I don't know if I love this acronym moving forward, but here we are. Uh, I think I

[00:06:26] Dylan Redekop: do. You need, you need an IV if you're sick and in the hospital, you need, you know, hook up to the IV and it's just like, it's medicinal. You need good content to stay alive.

I think that's just what it comes down to.

[00:06:37] Chenell Basilio: And, um, it was, it was interesting. I got a lot of good feedback on it. I think I probably disappointed some people who were looking for like the cool growth hacked, like the cool growth hacks and stuff. Right. I also got a lot of people telling me afterwards, like it's such a good reminder to like go back and rework your content if you're not getting replies or people sharing your content without you asking them to, to make sure it's [00:07:00] actually decent and so hopefully I'm going to see if Matt will let me share the talk on the podcast feed in the future.

Just so we have, people can hear it for themselves, uh, even if they weren't there. But yeah, I, I just think it's the overarching thing. Like every time someone says like my newsletter is not growing fast enough or I'm not getting enough subscribers and I look at their content, I'm like, I'm sorry, it's not good enough.

Like, no, like people aren't going to share it. It's just, it's a hard truth. Yeah, it's, it's a hard thing to hear, but I think it's helpful. Guiding point.

[00:07:28] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I think the, the content you have to spend a lot more time creating really good content than you kind of do almost anything else. And that's hard too, right?

Because you need to also like promote your content and revenue streams going and find collaborators and write on social media, you know, you've got to do all these things. But if, again, if the content Is it good and falls flat, then none of that really matters.

[00:07:51] Chenell Basilio: And that doesn't mean that your content has to be long form, like these super in depth pieces, like spending time on content can also be refining it and making it shorter and more [00:08:00] helpful for people.

So I don't want people to take away from this, that like it has to be a long form content. That's not what I'm saying at all. Uh, I just think it needs to be valuable. And when you spend more time on it, refining it, making it more valuable, it ends up that way. So

[00:08:11] Dylan Redekop: good clarification.

[00:08:12] Chenell Basilio: And I mean, one of the.

The coolest things, like I was able to chat with Alex Lieberman back in like the speaker green room, which is like so fun. Like just, and for those not

[00:08:21] Dylan Redekop: in the know, Alex Lieberman is

[00:08:23] Chenell Basilio: yeah. Founder of morning brew co founder of morning brew. So he has a little bit of experience in the space and So he was, I was telling him like what I was talking about and he's like, yeah, I mean, it's, it's totally, that's exactly the thing.

Like if your content stinks, like nobody's going to share it. And he said, people always talk about the referral program and how well it worked. And it's always used as an example of like a great referral program. And he's like, it kind of annoys me because people kind of leave off the fact that people.

Use a referral program to share your content. And if your content's not good, they're not going to share it just to get a sticker. Like they want a sticker of a brand or a [00:09:00] newsletter that they love because the content's good. He's like, so that was the underarching reason it took off. Thank you. Yes.

Correct.

[00:09:06] Dylan Redekop: That's great. That's a good reminder.

[00:09:10] Chenell Basilio: So good. And it's like coming from somebody who essentially. Started one of the biggest newsletters in the space. And like a lot of people these days are trying to be the next morning brew for X or whatever, but they forget that that is like the underarching theme.

Um, the other one that was really cool, uh, Yossi Levi, who I wrote a deep dive on the car dealership guy, he has a fascinating business, but I kinda shared one of his pieces of content in the. Talk and he was in the audience, which is cool. And so later when he was on a panel, they asked him like how he grew.

And he was like, well, Chenell said it earlier. Like you have to have good content. I was like, this is so cool. Like, thank you for closing the circle on this because it was just like, like these huge. Newsletters are consistently saying this, but nobody wants to listen. So

[00:09:57] Dylan Redekop: yeah, so, so important. Did you know he was in the [00:10:00] audience when you were giving your talk?

[00:10:01] Chenell Basilio: I did not. Um, I did not. So that was really cool. And I just like happened to walk into their panel at like right before he said that. And I was like, okay, this is awesome.

[00:10:10] Dylan Redekop: It's good timing. Yeah, it

[00:10:11] Chenell Basilio: was good timing. Love it. Yeah. I mean, even in that talk, I was like, you know, AI is. Kind of removing a lot of newsletters, like curated newsletters, aren't going to be as valuable because AI can create some of those.

So, um, there's just more and more competition than ever find your angle, find your competitive advantage, keep creating content around that thing.

[00:10:33] Dylan Redekop: Absolutely. And I think, I don't know if we'll get into this right now or if we can wait on this, but Adam Ryan from work week, he just put out, I think yesterday, a really, um, in depth thought.

Experiment, I suppose, and his prediction on how AI is going to impact newsletters, a link to that as well, maybe in the show notes, but, um, really interesting how you're basically the whole to paraphrase the whole thing. It's like AI is going to sort what you see even in your inbox. So you better make sure that your newsletter [00:11:00] is going to inboxes is really high quality so that people are opening it.

And AI sees that. Signal and they keep showing it in the inbox

[00:11:06] Chenell Basilio: 100 percent that was such a good piece by him I know there's some some areas of it that people are like well Maybe not quite but I think the overarching underlying theme is like yeah

[00:11:16] Dylan Redekop: He's totally right and I think the you got to be bold when you make stuff like this Not everyone's gonna agree with you anyway, so I just appreciate the the boldness of kind of taking a Um, I don't have a position or in a stance on, on anything, even if I don't fully agree with it or even if I do.

So I think we could use a little bit more of that probably in the newsletter space because we are a little bit of a Kumbaya kind of, you know, everybody gets along and I love your newsletter. It's great. Everything's great. But you know, a little bit of, um, spiciness doesn't, doesn't hurt, I think.

[00:11:43] Chenell Basilio: Not at all.

Okay. I think the next one, let's get into something more fun because people are going to be like, oh, really content. That's what you're talking about right now. So Steph Smith had a. She's just incredible, like an incredible speaker and thinker and just creator. Uh, she had a whole [00:12:00] talk about the, some of the best tools out there that you can find, like different trending topics or ways to use, um, data online to help create content.

Um, so some of the ones that she called out were gummy search, which is essentially a tool that you can use. And I've heard her talk about this before, but I never actually looked into it. Uh, it's a tool you can use to like find trending topics on, on Reddit. Um, and it's not just like, Hey, this one got the most upvotes.

It's like, Hey, this topic in general on Reddit, like posts about this topic are getting more, uh, reach or here's what people are upvoting and talking most about. So I thought that was really interesting. Kind

[00:12:39] Dylan Redekop: of like a, a trust for. Just subreddits kind of thing or any topics in subreddit or kind

[00:12:43] Chenell Basilio: of it's actually way more interactive, too You can actually go in there and see all of the posts and that kind of thing from gummy search, too So you don't even have to go to read it, which is fun It was like 29 bucks a month.

I might test it out in a little bit but I was using the free side of things which you could still get [00:13:00] quite a bit of Data out of so I thought that was fun. Nice.

[00:13:03] Dylan Redekop: I'll be checking out. I've been spending a little bit more time in the reddit The newsletters subreddit lately, so it's been an interesting experiment.

Yeah

[00:13:10] Chenell Basilio: Um, yeah, and then she was talking about this tool called app magic, which I did not know existed You can see like what apps are like earning the most money every month, etc. Pretty insane. Um, what? Yeah, and so she showed this like screenshot here. I can share the slides with you in here just so you can see it.

Um, she shared this screenshot of essentially the app store and you can see how much money each app is making. And like my favorite, I'm like such a nerd. I have a plant app so you can like take a picture of a plant. Or an insect and it'll be like, Hey, this is a blah, blah, blah bug. And you, you know, it's going to hurt your tomato plant or whatever.

Um, but yeah, so the app is called picture this, I think. And it's earning, earning like 2 million a month,

[00:13:53] Dylan Redekop: a month,

[00:13:54] Chenell Basilio: a month,

[00:13:55] Dylan Redekop: a month.

[00:13:56] Chenell Basilio: And like, okay. Even if this isn't perfectly [00:14:00] accurate, it's like pretty, pretty good in terms of like comparing to other apps. And it was like the top, one of the top grossing apps.

And I was like, this makes so much sense because. Wait, what's it called? Picture this.

[00:14:11] Dylan Redekop: Picture this.

[00:14:12] Chenell Basilio: So I'll find like a weed in my backyard and I'm like, what is this thing? You know, cause I don't want it to like hurt the garden or whatever.

[00:14:17] Dylan Redekop: I thought you were talking about like houseplants. So I was like going to be 100%.

Oh, you can use that. It's the same thing. It works on houseplants too. And you can set it up.

[00:14:25] Chenell Basilio: All right. Before I rant too much about this, but you can set. And say like, okay, I own this plant and it'll help you if you pay for the app, which is how they get you, it'll let you set up like a schedule. So it'll remind you via push notification, like, Hey, it's Tuesday.

You should water your blank plant,

[00:14:40] Dylan Redekop: which is pretty fun.

[00:14:42] Chenell Basilio: That

[00:14:42] Dylan Redekop: is, I, you know, it's funny cause I had, this is totally editable content for, for our lovely editor, but I had an app like this. And I think I was killing my plants because it doesn't know how much. Humidities in your room and how big your pot is and how much sunlight it's getting exactly.

It's all like just speculation. So I was like putting little [00:15:00] dribbles of water in my plants, like on a, almost by, by every other day kind of basis. And I don't think they liked it very much. So I just kind of trashed the app and, uh, now I've got, now I've got my own spreadsheet full of my plant. Watering tracking.

So

[00:15:14] Chenell Basilio: Dylan, I love that we're both like planners. I can't keep indoor plants alive, but I can garden, but

[00:15:20] Dylan Redekop: that's amazing. That's amazing. I can't grow. I grew like three total tomatoes from three plants, I think last summer. So

[00:15:26] Chenell Basilio: yeah, I

[00:15:27] Dylan Redekop: could use your green thumb in the garden for sure.

[00:15:30] Chenell Basilio: We seem to

[00:15:30] Dylan Redekop: swap skills.

[00:15:31] Chenell Basilio: Yes, we do.

[00:15:32] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Cross promo. Back to newsletters.

[00:15:35] Chenell Basilio: Back to newsletters. Um, but yeah, so there are, I'm sure she's had, she has this talk somewhere else. I'll see if I can like link to some of these tools, but it's just another way to add an extra piece of research to your content. Talking about exclusives, like you want to add some original research, here you go.

This is exactly how you can do it. Um, so she shows you like where to find data sets and like things that just other people don't include in their content. [00:16:00] And that's going to make your content stand out for sure. Um,

[00:16:02] Dylan Redekop: Well, yeah. And Steph was the kind of the main lead when it came to running trends in the beginning, right?

When the hustle started up their paid subscription of trends. The whole point of that was like, Um, and so it's about, like, doing this kind of deep research into what was trending in terms of topics on Google, um, in keywords research and all that sort of stuff and like pull exposing those for their paid subscribers, right.

For like business trends and ideas. So she of many people or of, uh, of all the people you should listen to, she's going to be somebody who knows how this stuff works and what you should look for.

[00:16:34] Chenell Basilio: Definitely. Um, so that was a really cool talk. I actually only got to listen to half of it because then I had to go get ready for mine.

Which I was bummed out, but I'm excited to watch the replay when it comes out.

[00:16:44] Dylan Redekop: Yes, absolutely. And I think you can buy the replays for all of these talks too, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:16:50] Chenell Basilio: Interesting. I know it's not,

[00:16:51] Dylan Redekop: it's not cheap, but he, but Matt was selling, I think back before the, I think right before the weekend was over, he was selling them for 200.

So you could watch [00:17:00] all of the, every single talk for about 200 bucks. Um, I don't know if that's still up or what that price is at now, but just, uh, Maybe we could include a link to that in the show notes. If anybody's interested in checking out and paying for those talks,

[00:17:11] Chenell Basilio: I'll, uh, before this goes live, I'll message Matt and see if he can get us a discount too.

[00:17:15] Dylan Redekop: Ooh, I like it. Okay.

[00:17:16] Chenell Basilio: Okay. So TBD and check the show notes if there's a discount. There may or may

[00:17:22] Dylan Redekop: not be.

[00:17:23] Chenell Basilio: If not, I totally get it. Uh, I didn't think it was too expensive for him, but yeah. So the other, okay. The next thing I want to talk about. I am just so freaking bullish on community after this. Uh, conference.

So we had just to give you context, there are, I think there's 80 members in our growth and reverse pro group. And there were like 10 to 12 that were at the conference. So like

[00:17:45] Dylan Redekop: that's sweet,

[00:17:46] Chenell Basilio: like a good chunk of them were there and it was just so fun getting to know these people in real life. Yeah. I mean like the one day I was sitting at lunch and I look over across the room and there's like five of them sitting together.

And I was like, I know none of these people knew each other before [00:18:00] the community started. And I thought that was like the Mike, it was so heartwarming. I was like, yes, this is so fun. Like bringing these people together in real life was just awesome.

[00:18:10] Dylan Redekop: That's so great. I see you being just like this puppeteer almost of like all these people, not like in a negative way at all, but you're just like, I'm bringing, I'm bringing my sheep together to flock.

[00:18:19] Chenell Basilio: Yes.

[00:18:20] Dylan Redekop: It's like, it's really cool. Um, that, I don't know that you created this thing and now people are like connecting because of it.

[00:18:27] Chenell Basilio: It's so fun. We had a meetup the day before the conference started. Uh, we did a, a collab meetup with Jay Klaus's community. Yeah, right. The lab. And for me, like, think about this in the moment, but it was so full circle because I started in Jay's community.

And so like having a collaborative meetup with his community and my community also, like, it was just. Coming full circle from like where I started this whole growth and reversing it.

[00:18:53] Dylan Redekop: It's like this meta meetup.

[00:18:54] Chenell Basilio: It is. Yes. But that was super fun. So then people got to meet before the conference started and like not have [00:19:00] the introvert thing of not knowing anybody there, which is what I tried to avoid at conference conferences.

So

[00:19:06] Dylan Redekop: it's like, Hey, I recognize your profile picture, but. Yeah. Too, too nervous or awkward to come say hi or too shy. So that was fun.

[00:19:12] Chenell Basilio: I will definitely try and do more of those in the future at conferences because I think it just helps people like get to know each other beforehand. The community in general is just so fun to talk about.

Like yesterday we were on a call for an hour just nerding out about sponsorships. Like that's fun.

[00:19:27] Dylan Redekop: It was. And there's some really interesting insights people were sharing about like what they were thinking of doing, some ideas they had and what would work and what wouldn't work for them. So yeah, it was really fun.

And so super casual too.

[00:19:38] Chenell Basilio: It was, um, bringing it back to Adam Ryan's piece, like he was even saying, like, what's so important now is like, take your newsletter and start building a community off of the back end of it. Like that is the future of this stuff. And while I don't think that's like imminent, like right now, I'm sure in the next few years, like newsletters are going to be harder and harder to like reach the same number of people [00:20:00] just with like Google spam and like all of this stuff happening.

But having a community of people is a good way to go. In terms of, you know, bringing them together.

[00:20:08] Dylan Redekop: Oh, you can't really lose on that. Um, yes, it's a time commitment for sure. It, like Adam, he wrote, his, his heading for this section is the only way to win. Of course, winning at, you know, the newsletter game.

One, create content that can't be summarized. Which is, um, quite a, quite a bold statement, hard to do, but very powerful. If you can own the relationship beyond an email address. So that's what you're talking about here. Right? Um, he, he mentions like SMS lists and community spaces and direct relationships.

So community spaces being whether online or offline or both, which is kind of what you started to create now that these people are meeting in real life. And his third one is don't be a commodity. And that falls in line to me, um, with the IV content, right? Great content that that's not commoditized that only you can create, um, or that takes a lot of work to recreate.

I think those are really great points on, on that.

[00:20:59] Chenell Basilio: So [00:21:00] I am more bullish than everyone community as well. Um, I need to stop using that word. I don't know why I said it twice now. In our chat, but bullish. Yeah.

[00:21:08] Dylan Redekop: Hey, when you're bullish on something, just go all in.

[00:21:10] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I'm so excited about it. Like just beaming with ideas.

And then there was a panel with Steph Smith and Sam par talking about how they grew trends, like the trends community in the early days. And like trends was supposed to just be a content play. And then like the night before they launched. Sam was like, I'm going to launch a Facebook group and he just like created it randomly, like on a whim.

And like, that was the most popular part of the trends community was

[00:21:35] Dylan Redekop: the Facebook group. Of course it was. Cause it was not planned out, not strategic at all. Just like a hunch, a gut feeling. And he did it. Isn't that the way it goes eh?

[00:21:43] Chenell Basilio: A hundred percent. Eh. He.

[00:21:47] Dylan Redekop: My Canadian is showing, I'm sorry.

[00:21:50] Chenell Basilio: You're beaming with pride over there for Canada.

[00:21:52] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um.

[00:21:55] Chenell Basilio: No, but he was talking about like how he grew it in the early days and I just thought it was so fun. He was [00:22:00] saying that he would, you know, seed content, like he would write pieces of content and have members actually post it. So he would write the whole, the whole post, send it to a member in a DM and be like, Hey, can you like post this?

Cause it was like either about their business or like something he saw them do online elsewhere. And he just wanted it to look like a happening party. And I thought that was really funny. But it obviously worked.

[00:22:21] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. No, absolutely. Um, they did so much stuff. So much wild stuff. And I think we have a, a deep dive on Sampar coming out in a little bit.

It might actually be, might be out by the time this episode airs.

[00:22:33] Chenell Basilio: Um, so that was really fun. I need to go back to that replay as well, cause that was amazing. Um, but yeah, I think the only, what else we

[00:22:42] Dylan Redekop: got,

[00:22:43] Chenell Basilio: the other thing. I think the last thing maybe people are sick of social media, like using social to grow their newsletter.

It's just like, Oh my gosh, I heard so many people like, I just can't with X platform or I guess is X, but what

[00:22:57] Dylan Redekop: do you mean exactly

[00:22:59] Chenell Basilio: [00:23:00] with Twitter or LinkedIn or any of them? It's just like you get it, you figure it out and then everything changes. And you're like, Oh my gosh, how am I going to spend more time figuring this out?

And it's just like this hamster wheel. Um, so. Yeah, it just feels disingenuous because you're playing the game of like, how can I make sure that the algorithm likes me today, but also making it something that people want to connect with me later about.

[00:23:23] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Yeah. How do I just write what's on my mind and also get seen by people and not sound like everybody else on the platform and that's a pain is a pain.

I think I'm not surprised to hear that either, because yeah, it's like, you know, you think you've got the algorithm figured out, so to speak. And then All of a sudden the next month, your impressions are down, your engagements down. You're just like, just kind of got to throw your hands up in there and be like, I don't know.

I don't know what to do.

[00:23:49] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, it's frustrating for sure. Um, so I was talking to people and I was like, would it be helpful if I like created a guide on like how to grow without social. Um, like a course kind of thing and people were like, [00:24:00] abso freaking lutely. So I think I'm going to move on this one. Um, you know, how to better do, yeah.

How to better do cross promos and swaps and collaborations and like what templates you can use and case studies and that kind of thing. So, yeah. So if you're interested in this, email me chenell@growthinreverse. com. Just let me know. Yeah. I'll add you to the little, uh, behind the scenes list if you will.

[00:24:23] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Like what do you want to know? What do you want to learn about? Yeah. Also is helpful because sometimes we wonder what, um, or we think we know what people want to learn about and we don't actually.

[00:24:33] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. Because there's

[00:24:34] Dylan Redekop: a lot of different ways that could go.

[00:24:36] Chenell Basilio: For sure. Um, but the, the few conversations I had at the conference, I, uh, it sounded like a, a good move.

So I'm happy to share what's worked for me and others I've seen doing it in the past. So I'm excited about that. Well, you've got

[00:24:47] Dylan Redekop: a little bit of a catalog to pull from examples of people who've done something along these lines.

[00:24:54] Chenell Basilio: Yes. Just a minor catalog.

[00:24:55] Dylan Redekop: That helps.

[00:24:56] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. Well, so what, what did you see in some of the, um, [00:25:00] the recaps that you, that you read that you thought were interesting?

Do you want to share? Yeah, there were

[00:25:03] Dylan Redekop: some good ones. Yeah. We, um, I don't think we've talked at all about Jay Klaus. Um, and he was, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was the very first talk from the whole conference. Um, it was the very first talk and, or guest speaker. Yeah. So his talk with the way I'm going to sum it up sounds very simplistic, but it's like very also, I think a lot of people need to hear it and the big takeaway.

Um, Brad Wolverton wrote about this. I think Nathan May wrote about it as well in his recap. Um, Spend your time on things people remember was kind of Brad's main lesson, but he pulled out Jay by saying, um, pick your spots. So choose one discovery platform and he references like social media essentially as a discovery platform, even though we just reeled about Growing without social, but if you are going to do social just choose one and for example linkedin and then choose one relationship platform So your newsletter where you can be world class.

And I thought that line really stood out to me. It's like, where you can be world class. Where can you position [00:26:00] your best self? Or where can you really leverage your talents and skills? Maybe it's writing, maybe it's not. Um, and you got to figure that out, but pick one of each. And go hard at those and grow on those and don't try to do everything and be everywhere.

I think is kind of the main takeaway.

[00:26:15] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I, it goes back to, uh, in so many deep dives I've written, I'd say this so many times people grow to X number of followers and then they go to a second platform. So like figure out one, like don't try to be everywhere. And so when Jay said this, I was like, thank you.

[00:26:29] Dylan Redekop: Yeah.

[00:26:31] Chenell Basilio: Go to one platform, figure it out, learn what people want to hear from you about. And then you can move on once you've mastered that,

[00:26:38] Dylan Redekop: and I think we've railed on this in past episodes to it, but it, it bears repeating, like, it's worth, it's worth hearing again. Um, and the other thing he said, uh, bullet point was build on own land.

So prioritize, prioritize, trust, um, over attention, right? So building owned relationships, like in a newsletter, um, instead of trying to be. Uh, discovered on social media. So essentially like he goes [00:27:00] on to kind of a, sort of a bonus lesson here. And that is really like, right. High quality, longer form content or create longer form assets.

Um, as opposed to just always prioritizing like quick social posts or maybe short videos. That stuff can go viral and can get a lot of eyeballs and attention. But that being said, if you don't have anything long form to really build that relationship with people, they're just gonna like your stuff and move on.

And you're not really going to, um, create that connection that you need to create a newsletter, subscriber, a follower, and eventually maybe a customer. So I thought those were some great bullet points.

[00:27:32] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. He had a great talk. Uh, always enjoy Jay's takes on everything in the creator space. Yeah.

[00:27:38] Dylan Redekop: Yeah.

Jay's, uh, he's been doing this for awhile. He knows, and he's been very successful at it. So anything he says, I, I definitely don't take with a grain of salt. I listen closely. Um, one other thing that came up in, in a few of the recaps I read were about Nathan Berry's, um, speech or speech talk about flywheels as business drivers.

Brad pulled out. A example [00:28:00] about leaning on your audience to basically produce content for your newsletter. And he suggested doing this by asking every newsletter or new newsletter subscriber to tell you about their biggest pain point. And then you can turn that into content that you write about. So, um, it's not always easy getting people to reply to your welcome email, especially, but if you can position it in the right way.

Um, you might not get 10 replies, but even if you get three out of 10 replies, you've got three pain points, um, whether they're all the same or they're all different, that gives you something that you can focus on when it comes to writing your next newsletter or creating a product, even potentially, um, to solve these problems that you may not have otherwise known.

So I thought that was an interesting point. And of course, the more people. Um, it works as a flywheel because the more people that subscribe to your newsletter, the more intel you're going to get, the more content you can create to attract even more people. So it's just kind of this thing that spins and just keeps on spinning faster and working better.

[00:28:52] Chenell Basilio: I thought one of the other things Nathan said in his talk that I thought was just a small takeaway, but it was so interesting. Um, If you're trying to grow on [00:29:00] a certain social platform, like ask your newsletter subscribers who they follow on that platform, because then you can like either collaborate with them or start posting on your, their content, like commenting on their content, um, sharing their stuff.

So I thought that was interesting to like, Oh, that's like another research point of like, where are my people hanging out and who are they following? I thought that was interesting. I guess such a small, I think he said it as like a throwaway comment and I was like, Oh no, that's really smart.

[00:29:25] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I could, I think that is smart.

I could see that being a challenge getting the, the responses, but if, if you could just even frame it as like reply with like just one person, one other person you follow and enjoy their content on social media or something like that. Cause if you say, who do you follow or name a list of people, as soon as you have to make people think a little bit harder, they're just going to do it.

So, um, but I like that. That is, that is smart.

[00:29:48] Chenell Basilio: It's pretty

[00:29:48] Dylan Redekop: smart. Um, there was a few others, I think, let me just pull up Nathan's list here. Yes, this is what I want to talk about the assist. So, um, the, the heading for this section from [00:30:00] Nathan Nathan May, um, was negative. CAC is the new black CAC stands for customer acquisition cost.

Um, and. Basically what he's saying is the assist are spending 50, 000 a month on ads to acquire customers, and yet they're recouping that all upfront. And so I had to check it out. So I went to the assist and I'm not the demographic. It's a women in business focused newsletter. Um, but I want, I need to figure out what they were doing.

So I subscribed and. As soon as you subscribe, you fill out a quick five question survey, so they get some demographic data. And they also know what position you are at a company or what you do, what industry you're in. And then after you fill out that survey, they take you to the next screen where it's this long page of here's what we think would be the best, um, you know, tech stack tools for you for what you do.

Uh, here's a great, uh, resource or article that you should check out. And they just have this list of all these things. And so these are. My assumption is these are almost all, [00:31:00] um, affiliate links or their own products. And so they're going to make recoup some money. Cause yeah, not everybody's going to click on these things and purchase, but there's bound to be some people that will.

And so, um, my assumption is when Nathan says the recouping, all of it upfront, they probably are, you were. Did you see this talk when you were at Austin? I didn't.

[00:31:18] Chenell Basilio: It was directly after mine. And so I was like not out there. Yeah.

[00:31:21] Dylan Redekop: Got it. You're in the green room just rubbing elbows with all the ladies doing everything.

No, no. I was

[00:31:25] Chenell Basilio: like coming down from my like panic attack. Uh, just kidding. No, so, yeah, I walked backstage and then called Anna and then I went and saw the Steph Smith Sampar panel. So unfortunately they were at the exact same moment.

[00:31:38] Dylan Redekop: Oh, sorry. And I missed a point here as well. They're not just affiliate deals.

There are actually like partners, like they get, it looks like they have sponsorships from certain people like a Monday, uh, monday. com notion and other B2B companies. So not only would they probably have some affiliate arrangements with some smaller of partners or maybe even not, um, They would just have straight up [00:32:00] partnership deals.

Like we know people are X amount of people are going to be driven to the site. They're going to see your product and they'll get some conversion data from that. And then that just makes it that much easier to pitch the next one. Right. So I thought this was really smart. If you can figure out all the backend to do it and you have the money to spend on, on ads, like 50, 000 a month is not anything to sneeze at.

But yeah, I thought this was pretty cool. I

[00:32:23] Chenell Basilio: think Tori Dunlap does this too. I remember this from a deep dive, uh, on the backend, she would, cause you fill out a quiz and then based on that, you go to a different page. Smart. Yeah. So that was a good one. Yeah. So Alex Lieberman, um, he kind of shared, I think it was like the morning brew and 36 pictures or something.

So it was just 36 slides and he just walked through, uh, his backstory and like how it got started. And he was sharing, um, some screenshots of like emails he wrote and like how he found Austin Reif, who was his co founder. Right. And so it was just, that one was just a really interesting business take on like someone who built like this [00:33:00] huge multimillion dollar newsletter of like how it happened.

Um, and he did share this really behind the

[00:33:06] Dylan Redekop: scenes kind of thing, right?

[00:33:08] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. And he shared this really interesting, like Google doc, you know, here are the marketing things we could try. And like, then next to each idea was like a column for, uh, the effort this would take the potential results. And like, then they would figure out like based on those.

Numbers, like which one to actually pursue. So I thought that was pretty cool. Um,

[00:33:28] Dylan Redekop: that is really cool.

[00:33:29] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. 'cause I have so many ideas and I never know how to categorize them. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And then I heard Nathan Barry talk about this on a different podcast that he was doing, and I was like, yep, I need to start doing something like this.

So

[00:33:42] Dylan Redekop: basically creating almost like a scorecard of like. Exactly. Is this worth it?

[00:33:45] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. So like effort, return and like that kind of thing. Uh, so if you could just like come up with, it's not a perfect way to do it, but I think it's better than my random, Oh, I'm going to do this today idea. Yeah.

[00:33:58] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. There's a little bit [00:34:00] more thought.

Through and some numbers around it, even if they're very speculative, but yeah, that's smart. I think I, one thing that stood out to me as well is how he made, um, the referral program Once you, once you were one of their big, larger referrals, he like hand wrote mess, like mail to you and sent you like, on a line piece of paper like, Hey, thanks for, um, you know, thanks for recommending uh, the Morning Brew and you know, keep up the amazing work.

And he's got some other words there. But like, I just thought that was, that was really. A really nice touch and that's just going to make a big fan and even bigger fan.

[00:34:33] Chenell Basilio: Definitely. Yeah. His, the way they built that business is just so scrappy. He kept talking about like being in the mud and I love that phrase.

It's just like, yeah, you're in the mud. I get it.

[00:34:44] Dylan Redekop: And then the last point on, on him was, um, That I thought was interesting was be patient. So that's a, this is Brad, what Brad was saying when he was doing his recap, essentially like testing new, uh, and this actually ties in really nicely with our episode with Anne Laure and like testing things and experimenting, [00:35:00] seeing what the results are.

And then if something is showing. to be working, like expand with it. Um, but don't just like commit to a direction just on a hunch that you think it's the right way to go. And then, you know, after three months, find out you've sunk a whole bunch of money and time and effort into it. And it's just failing miserably.

So his, one of his examples was, um, Dan Toomey, who, I don't know if you've watched his good work, um, videos. They're so good. So funny. Uh, and I, when I first started watching that, I had no idea that's where it started. He just does such a good job. And it would just started as like, it's almost kind of like a spinoff from like the daily show or, you know, how these people have their own little bits or segments and they turn them all into their own, their own shows.

So I really liked that approach. I thought it was cool.

[00:35:40] Chenell Basilio: Um, it was a good conference. I'm, I'm excited for next year. I'm actually really excited, uh, in. May, May 2nd. I think it is. Yes. Friday, May 2nd in New York. They're doing the newsletter conference, which will be the second year of that one. I had a blast with that one last year.

It was so fun to see different people. And like

[00:35:59] Dylan Redekop: you were on a [00:36:00] panel last year. I was on a panel.

[00:36:01] Chenell Basilio: Yeah.

[00:36:02] Dylan Redekop: Yeah.

[00:36:02] Chenell Basilio: TBD on what, what I'm doing this year. I will be on stage at some point. Um, we have to figure out. What that looks like, but, um, that'll be fun, uh, to just kind of relive the newsletter marketing summit, but in a different state that's much closer to my home.

Uh, yeah,

[00:36:17] Dylan Redekop: you can almost drive.

[00:36:18] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. And I remember last year that that conference was cool because there were people from like Bloomberg and like. These big names and you probably me just saying that people probably cringe of like Bloomberg, but like the things you can learn from someone who's running like 60 newsletters at a time is wild.

It's not as flashy as like the creators that might have been on stage before at this past one, but it is. Yeah.

[00:36:44] Dylan Redekop: There's fewer, maybe personal brands, but way more brands.

[00:36:48] Chenell Basilio: Correct. Yeah. But I think they're starting to incorporate more creators too. Um, I know like Jaspreet Singh of, of, uh,

[00:36:55] Dylan Redekop: market briefs.

[00:36:56] Chenell Basilio: Yeah.

He runs market briefs, but he has a minority mindset, his [00:37:00] YouTube channel. Um, it's pretty crazy. That growth story there too. But, uh, I know he'll be there. So I'm excited. I'm excited for that one. I just love in person conferences. It's just like the best. So good to see people and like be able to like, you know, talk to them in real life.

[00:37:15] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Instead of this two dimensional screen thing in front of us, like, Oh, you know,

[00:37:19] Chenell Basilio: we only have 29 minutes left. Cause I have another call after this. It's like, no, we're here all at the same place. Like that's it. That's awesome.

[00:37:27] Dylan Redekop: And someday you and I will meet in person.

[00:37:29] Chenell Basilio: One

[00:37:29] Dylan Redekop: day in three, in three dimensions,

[00:37:33] Chenell Basilio: it won't

[00:37:34] Dylan Redekop: be in, it won't be in New York.

Cause I'm not flying across the continent for a one day event, but, um, Boise, Idaho, I think will be, will be where we connect at, uh, the craft and commerce conference in June. Yeah. So look forward to that one myself.

[00:37:47] Chenell Basilio: That's it. One of my favorites. Yeah.

[00:37:49] Dylan Redekop: Excited. Cool. Anything, any last, uh, parting words about the newsletter marketing summit in Austin?

[00:37:56] Chenell Basilio: Um, I don't think so. Not any last parting words about the [00:38:00] summit itself. I think, um, if you listen this far and you haven't joined the newsletter yet, go join the newsletter, growth and reverse. com. Dylan and I share some interesting stuff on there. So I'm excited to, uh, Kind of keep doing that and have more people reading.

Um, if you want to join a community of people, come check out growth and reverse pro me and Dylan hang out virtually in there a lot daily. Uh, and sometimes there are in person

[00:38:26] Dylan Redekop: meetups too. That's right. Because there just wasn't Austin and I'm sure there will be more. Yeah, definitely. In,

[00:38:31] Chenell Basilio: uh, Boise. Many car.

[00:38:32] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Yeah. And the many conferences Chenell goes to.

[00:38:35] Chenell Basilio: Yeah.

[00:38:36] Dylan Redekop: Too

[00:38:36] Chenell Basilio: many. Yeah.

[00:38:38] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. That's good. Cool. Awesome. Thanks for sharing all your experience and your thoughts. And I think the other thing we should probably mention is, um, Um, your talk, even if it's not necessarily, let's say you're not able to share it publicly.

Um, it would be interesting from my perspective, just even hear you like maybe give that talk on the podcast or something like that. Oh,

[00:38:59] Chenell Basilio: definitely. [00:39:00]

[00:39:00] Dylan Redekop: I would do that. That'd be cool to do just, uh, as maybe the last, the last point of a note to make.

[00:39:04] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. So keep an eye out. Or an ear out for that or both soon or both.

Um, yeah. And if you're listening to the YouTube version of this. Me and Dylan are staring at each other right now. Um, so you can watch us on the big screen. I saw one of my friends the other day sent me a picture. She's like, I'm, I'm doing work and watching you on the TV. And I was like, this is so crazy.

[00:39:28] Dylan Redekop: That is, that is crazy. I don't think my friends, my real life friends even know. I am. Oh, I should say business friend,

[00:39:34] Chenell Basilio: business friend. Oh, okay. Okay.

[00:39:36] Dylan Redekop: Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense.

[00:39:38] Chenell Basilio: Real life friends are like, what are you doing? Talking about emails. That's fun.

[00:39:42] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, exactly. They don't understand.

They

[00:39:48] Chenell Basilio: don't get it. They don't get it. No. Well, if you have ideas for future episodes, please reach out and let us know. We are happy to, um, Talk through any other topics. I guess we should actually talk about [00:40:00] upcoming roasts that we want to do.

[00:40:02] Dylan Redekop: We show

[00:40:02] Chenell Basilio: if you go to growth and reverse. com slash roast, either roast or roast, I'll make both.

Um, you can submit your newsletter for us to kind of talk through, give feedback. Uh, it'll probably be mostly about landing page, um, content. Topics and ideas, but yeah, I'm excited about this. I've seen other people do roasts on a podcast and I think it's just fun and very informative, even if it's not your newsletter getting talked about and roasted,

[00:40:29] Dylan Redekop: it's a, it's kind of like a mini newsletter audit, right?

Like a, a mini version of that, which Chenell does newsletter audits that you can pay her to do for your newsletter, where she goes really deep, thorough, as you know, she does with her research. So, um, this considered, this is like a free roast. You get the vibe. Um, Chenell and my vibe is not harsh, so don't be scared.

Like we're not gonna, we're not going to tear you apart and, um, be mean or anything like that. We're just going to probably be more helpful than anything.

[00:40:57] Chenell Basilio: I'm excited. Again, if you want to get your newsletter [00:41:00] roasted, uh, go to growth reverse. com slash roast and, uh, fill out that form and you might see your name in lights here soon.

[00:41:09] Dylan Redekop: And if you want an even better chance of getting roasted, just give a apple rating and review and maybe we'll pick your newsletter that way too.

[00:41:17] Chenell Basilio: There you go. Yeah. We don't have many of those. You're such a good podcaster, Dylan. I always forget about that.

[00:41:24] Dylan Redekop: They apparently help. That's what I've heard. Who knew?

[00:41:27] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I've actually, cause I tried to get someone as a guest recently and they were like, well, what's the download numbers look like? Cause you don't have a lot of reviews, so please go review this if you want more fun guests to come on.

[00:41:39] Dylan Redekop: Exactly. Bigger, better guests, more reviews needed.

[00:41:42] Chenell Basilio: We're getting weird.

Let's

[00:41:43] Dylan Redekop: wrap it.

[00:41:44] Chenell Basilio: Let's wrap

[00:41:44] Dylan Redekop: it. All right.

[00:41:47] Chenell Basilio: See you later.

[00:41:48] Dylan Redekop: See ya.

See ya.