Building His Newsletter to 75k Subscribers with Eddie Shleyner of Very Good Copy (#003)
AUDIO - Eddie Shleyner FINAL
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[00:00:00] Chenell Basilio: Welcome back to the growth and reverse podcast. Uh, for the first time ever, I actually got to interview someone that I did a deep dive on about six months ago. Um, I wrote a deep dive on Eddie Schleiner and we actually were able to bring him on and ask him some more questions about what I got, right.
What I got wrong. Um, and how he kind of thinks about his work and everything.
[00:00:19] Dylan Redekop: So that was super cool. Some people probably don't know that when they read your deep dives that you haven't actually interviewed. Any of these people that you're doing the deep dives on.
[00:00:26] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. In the beginning, it kind of started out as like, they didn't really know who I was, so they probably wouldn't have been like giving me the time of day to actually do all this research on them.
But after a while I started realizing that people actually forget what happened. Like even talking to Eddie. Some of the, some of the things I shared, he was like, I totally forgot that I even did that. So thanks for reminding me. Um, and you can kind of hear it if you go back, like the number of interview podcasts that I listened to of like them being interviewed by other people, their answers change over time.
It's super fascinating.
[00:00:56] Dylan Redekop: That is really cool. And that, that doesn't surprise me. I think there's these bias [00:01:00] to, you know, we have these kind of almost like issues with our memories and how they falter over time. And there's a whole Bunch of studies. I'm sure they've been done about it, but yeah, it's cool that you've kind of seen that play out while doing these deep dives with people.
Chanel, since you did this deep dive, like first of all, I want to know, what was it like actually interviewing somebody who you've written a deep dive on?
[00:01:16] Chenell Basilio: It was very cool. Eddie's such like a chill guy. And he was just like, this was really insane to like read all of that. Um, He's like, I feel like you know more about me than I know about myself, which feels very strange.
Um, but no, it's cool. Cause so as I'm listening to all of these podcast interviews that they're doing, I feel like I'm getting to know them, but I've actually never met these people before. So it's kind of weird. Um, I'm sure it's very strange for someone I've written a deep dive on to be like, wow, this person spent like 40 hours listening to research about my life.
And yeah, that's gotta be weird, but I guess it is what it
[00:01:48] Dylan Redekop: is with doing that though. I think that. Makes for, you know, that much more of an interesting interview too. Cause we've got like kind of the low down on everything they've done. Um, and with Eddie, he, he's been doing this for like 10 [00:02:00] years, right?
Very good copy sort of kind of originated about 10 years ago in 2014. But, um, I really liked his story, how basically he got hired as a copywriter for a company and he was not a copywriter, knew nothing about copywriting. Teach himself on the fly and that was like the inception of very good copy
[00:02:16] Chenell Basilio: a hundred percent.
Yeah So he just started kind of saving all these lessons that he was learning into a google doc and then Someone at a job he was working at found like saw him writing this and they're like, what are you writing a book? And he's like no I have this whole like google doc of these things i'm learning And they're like dude, you got to publish these online And he was like what and then he did and that's essentially where very good copy was born
[00:02:38] Dylan Redekop: Yeah.
And then now like 70, 000 subscribers plus, he's got a pretty robust business that he monetized a number of different ways, which we'll get to in the interview. So, um, yeah, those are, there's some really interesting points points in this interview that Eddie shares that we talk about in the, that you share in the deep dive that you highlight, but I think I love how he goes a little bit deeper and adds a lot more [00:03:00] context to as well to some of the stuff he was doing and why he was doing it.
And, um, yeah, definitely. And there's one thing actually. That you called out that you totally missed when you were doing the deep dive, um, that Eddie, that Eddie talks about a little bit more as well.
[00:03:12] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, a hundred percent. That was really fascinating.
[00:03:22] Eddie Shleyner: I'm Eddie. Uh, I run a newsletter and a blog called a very good copy. And, uh, there, I write these micro lessons, uh, that are about. Um, copywriting and creativity, creative theory, how to think creatively, how to write, um, how to write copy. And, uh, I've been doing that for 10 years or so. Um, but in, in this deep dive, uh, Chanel that you, that you wrote about it, which I really appreciate, thank you for doing that.
I was, I was, I was telling you earlier, I was, I was really stunned to see it and just see, see actually how in depth it was. It was pretty cool. Um, because I forgot, I forgotten a [00:04:00] few things, uh, that you'd mentioned in there. So it was neat. Um, but yeah, in there you'd mentioned something about like the intentionality behind the newsletter, starting the growth of the newsletter, starting around like 2018.
Um, and, uh, so I, I, I think that's a, that's a salient point is that like, I, you know, I started 10 years ago, but I really didn't start growing it. Until I joined a company called G2. com, and I had amazing colleagues there, very supportive, very smart people, um, who were in, on the growth side of things. And they, uh, encouraged me to start marketing it in earnest in 2018.
So, for a while there, I was just kind of doing it for myself. I was just kind of teaching, you know, teaching myself copywriting, teaching myself how to, you know, Think creatively, uh, by writing these little lessons, you know, if I would listen to a podcast, read a book, watch a seminar, whatever, um, if I came into something that was interesting to me and something that helped me do my [00:05:00] job better, I would, um, I would challenge myself to write about it so that, you know, if, if, uh, you know, cause I, I figured if I could do that, if I could teach it to other people, then I knew it well enough.
So I was just doing it for myself straight up. And then, um, You know, when I got hired at this place and people saw this, uh, this kind of backlog of, of articles that I had produced, they, they said you should start marketing this. So that's really when it started in 2018 or so.
[00:05:26] Chenell Basilio: Nice. Let me actually share my screen.
I want to jump into this growth timeline. Cause I think that's interesting. Um, it's a good point to bring up. So this is, this is, this is
[00:05:35] Eddie Shleyner: unreal. When I saw this, it was, I was like, this is so much effort. So I appreciate this. I appreciate this.
[00:05:44] Chenell Basilio: So I actually started it in October, 2017, but I think you started writing these, uh, micro lessons in like 2014.
You started publishing them.
[00:05:53] Eddie Shleyner: Well, not really publishing. No. Maybe I did. I don't know. You tell me, tell me what the way [00:06:00] back, but I really don't, I don't remember what the, what the milestones were when I started putting stuff up. I just remember I started doing it. with solely for myself Whereas like a lot of folks now they have like this they reverse engineer like a growth goal, you know They'll say oh I want a hundred thousand Subscribers on such and such platform.
I want a fifty thousand, you know subscribers on my newsletter and they'll reverse engineer how to get there And I started with the opposite intention. I really didn't want an audience. I, I, I didn't think I wanted one, you know, that wasn't the, that wasn't the goal. I just wanted to do, you know, be better at this, at this job that I had gotten, uh, that I knew nothing about.
So, uh, yeah.
[00:06:44] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. So it looks like you started. I mean, I think, if I remember correctly, you started like really earnestly publishing them pretty consistently, like maybe not every week, but it was pretty close around 2017. And then once you left your day job, it, so for people who can't see the timeline, [00:07:00] it's like pretty flat until right around the time you left your day job in 2020.
And it just takes off.
[00:07:07] Eddie Shleyner: I just
[00:07:07] Chenell Basilio: thought that was awesome. Do you think that's because you were so intentional with it at that point? Or did you see something and that was the impetus for leaving your day job?
[00:07:16] Eddie Shleyner: I left after I think in March, right around when COVID happened, I started posting on on LinkedIn.
And, um, and that was really just a practical thing. You know, I had more time in the mornings I had, you know, I didn't have to commute. And I just had time to devote to not just writing them, but, but also marketing them. You know, I think marketing is a huge, huge part of all this. And, and, um, I just didn't have the time for it before, but when COVID hit, I decided to do that.
And then by the end of that year, by the end of 2020, around November, Um, I realized that, you know, I was getting opportunities, uh, that I couldn't really turn down, but I also couldn't really take if I had a full time job. So I just, I just left, [00:08:00] um, and, uh, yeah, that was kind of a, that was kind of a risk, but probably, probably one of my better risks as far as like work goes.
[00:08:10] Chenell Basilio: Seems like it. Um, so at the time, were you just doing like consulting and stuff when you left? Like writing for other people?
[00:08:17] Eddie Shleyner: I was, I was copywriting. I was, I wasn't, yeah, I didn't really start consulting until, um, a few years later. And I, I guess the difference is, is just like consulting is I get on a phone call and I, you know, or on a zoom call and I tell you what to do, or I tell you what, you know, I give you my take.
And then copywriting is, is harder because I'm actually, um, writing it for you. So I think I was just doing copywriting at the time.
[00:08:42] Chenell Basilio: Okay. Interesting. Um, Okay, so I guess we saw the growth timeline. We talked a little bit about revenue. I know there's more to it, but we can dig into it in a bit, but I kind of wanted to jump in.
So I think with Your first the first growth lever that I pulled out was your HubSpot posting like you were [00:09:00] just writing on HubSpot I think yeah 2016 it looks like And you said that you had written a post and people couldn't figure out how to sign up for a newsletter that I don't think You had at the time.
So they emailed you and said like how can I sign up for your newsletter?
[00:09:16] Eddie Shleyner: Right? Yep Basically, yeah, there was a lot of there's a lot of people that came over from You Uh, a post and did not have any way to like stay in touch, I think. So, so they emailed asking about it and that's when, that's when I got MailChimp and the thing on MailChimp was like, Oh, it's free until 2, 000 subscribers and I was like, great.
I'm never gonna pay. I'm never paying for this, you know what I mean? Because 2, 000 subscribers seems so just unattainable to me. It just seems so crazy. But yeah, I think it's testament to how fast things can grow online. You know, when you have this, this worldwide audience at your disposal, it's crazy.
[00:09:55] Chenell Basilio: But how did that feel like having people read your work on hubspot.
com and [00:10:00] then be like, I want to sign up for your newsletter.
[00:10:02] Eddie Shleyner: I was just, I was just motivated. I think, you know, it was just motivating. And I, I appreciated that people took the time to, to write. I think back, you know, I think about myself and, you know, how, you know, how rarely I write to people that, even people that are inspiring me and that are, that I admire, I just either feel like they're not gonna see it, and it's just gonna be in a void somewhere, or like, um, you know, I don't want to bother them or, or I don't want to take the time, you know?
So I just felt, I was just motivated by the fact that people actually took the time to do it and appreciate it, I guess.
[00:10:40] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I had to feel cool.
[00:10:41] Dylan Redekop: I was curious how you, um, like some of the people listening will probably wonder like, Whoa, HubSpot, you're writing for HubSpot? Like how did, how did that happen and how did that come about?
And, and, um, yeah, if any learnings from that, uh, aside from obviously, you know, maybe having a newsletter signup page before you, you start sending [00:11:00] people to your newsletter or to your website.
[00:11:02] Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I think it started when I went to InBound one year and I went to the InBound, the HubSpot InBound conference and I watched a presentation and one of the writers, one of the editors Was, um, either she was moderating a panel or she was just like assigned to that room and I recognized her and I came up to her and I was just like, Hey, you know, can I, can I submit something?
And she was like, I remember she was like, yeah, we, you know, absolutely. You can get in touch and send something. It's gotta be long form. You know, I think they were doing a lot of like 1500 to 2000 word articles. And, um, so I, I think I got, uh, somebody's email address that way, just sent them. Sent them, you know, just the best article that I could, you know, I spent a long time on it and I was just, I just really tried to do a good job and they published it, uh, just because [00:12:00] it was, you know, I guess I really tried, really tried to do a good job, you know?
So I, you know, that's, that's a takeaway. If you want to get published somewhere, you know, it's. I don't know if it's probably less about who you know and just like how much effort you put into that, that piece, you know, they just want good stuff.
[00:12:19] Dylan Redekop: And you publish more than one post with them, correct?
[00:12:21] Eddie Shleyner: Uh, yeah, I think it, I think it tallied up.
I mean, eventually I had a column and so there's probably 20 or so posts. Um, and I don't know how, how it really works. I think some of them get cycled out and then cycled back in depending on the year or where they get updated or, um, I'm not really sure how the editorial process over there goes, but I love all those people.
I love HubSpot. When I think about HubSpot, I think about like the beginning of all this. I think about the opportunities that they gave me. Um, I think about how, how nice they were to me as well, how encouraging and how motivating they were. Um, [00:13:00] You know, it's testament to like, uh, how, how important. It is to be supportive of young creative people, I think, because, you know, I was not, I don't know if I was a very good writer back then, or, you know, I, I think I just, you know, it was kind of like white knuckling the whole process and trying to do my best and, you know, it wasn't, it's never easy, but it's certainly, it really wasn't easy back then.
Like just wrestling with all the ideas and the turn of phrases and everything. It was really kind of agonizing. Um, but they were, uh, they were super supportive and, and, sent back very few edits and just were, just encouraged me that way. So I, I, I look back on my time working with HubSpot, uh, editors, uh, very fondly.
[00:13:45] Chenell Basilio: It's so fascinating that it started just by like going up to someone at a conference and being like, Hey, can I submit an article? I feel like so many people make it out to be like this huge process. And you were just like, no, I'm just going to ask this person.
[00:13:57] Eddie Shleyner: Oh yeah. Yeah. It was very, it was, [00:14:00] Super off the cuff and, um, you know, I think you just got to, you just got to go for stuff like that, you know, and, uh, you never know if they don't take it, maybe somebody else will, you know, as long as, as long as you do it for, you know, I think you do it for yourself, you know, don't try to reverse engineer anything, don't try to reverse engineer, like the biggest publication or the place where you're going to get the most reach.
Like, I think if you just lead with like your own, um, your own desire to, to create something valuable for people or create something, um, Uh, that engages you, you know, if you're like, Oh, I really like this. Um, you know, this, this makes me vibrate in a way like this is, this is, uh, this is compelling for me.
Um, you know, if you, if you endeavor to do something like that, to create something like that every, every time you, uh, every time you write, then, um, I think that's, that's the most important thing. You know, everything else would kind of fall into place.
[00:14:54] Chenell Basilio: Agree. Um, all right. So moving on to this next one was just build your well.
And I know you [00:15:00] have this. I think it's like a massive Google folder. Do you still do this process of having the well and all your ideas in there?
[00:15:06] Eddie Shleyner: It's a notion now, but which is much easier. But, uh, yeah, I mean, this is just a, this is just a technique that, um, helps me retain, I guess, ideas and, uh, cause. You know, sometimes I'll be like at the top of my stairs and have an idea and then I'll get a text and then I'll like respond to it as I'm walking down the stairs and at the bottom of the stairs, I forgot the idea at the top.
And I'm like, Oh man, what was that? So like, you know, I, I, uh, I'm, I'm just conscious of this. how fleeting, uh, these thoughts are and how fleeting these connections can be. And so I just, I tried to make it a habit to write everything down and, um, uh, keep it in, in one place so that if I [00:16:00] ever needed inspiration or if I never, you know, if I ever, you know, wanted to.
You know, to go pick, you know, pluck something to write about, um, it's right there for me.
[00:16:08] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I like that a lot. Um, I've been using Notion a lot more recently too. It's, uh, it's been something that's hard to transition from Google Docs, but, uh, it's definitely a better tool, I think. You were a Google Docs,
[00:16:20] Eddie Shleyner: you were a Google Docs user before that?
[00:16:22] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. And Apple Notes and all of the things. I just have stuff scattered everywhere. Right,
[00:16:27] Eddie Shleyner: right.
[00:16:28] Dylan Redekop: Try all of them. I was just gonna say your idea of the well is, and like recording that idea, I resonate like very much with that because, um, you know, I, I go for runs once in a while and I on, when I'm on a run, sometimes these ideas kind of bubble up and I'm like, oh yeah, I'll make a note of that when I get home.
And of course, you know, you get home and you're like, totally forget you even had the idea. To begin with. And, and so I just got out the habit of like, if I have an idea, I get on my phone, take a voice recording of it. And that's kind of like my, my, um, audio well, I guess, so to [00:17:00] speak. And that's, that's helped me publish, um, you know, blog posts and articles and stuff like that too.
So I think I resonate a lot with that and I think it's really smart. And, and a lot of people probably take for granted their memory or think that their memory is better than it is.
[00:17:13] Eddie Shleyner: Well, yeah, I mean, for sure. We, I think we forget our lives as quickly as we live them. Why not, why not set yourself up for success when, when you really have something, uh, when you really have something in the pocket?
And, and, and also, you know, it's not like, um, it's not a, it's not a bad thing. It, it, it's a lifestyle change. It's not a bad thing necessarily to, like, be pulling out your phone all the time and, and recording things. Um, but sometimes it does get in the middle, in, in the way of success. you know, what you're doing, like if you're at dinner, if you're like trying to fall asleep or if you're on a run or something like that.
So it is like a lifestyle change. Um, and it's something that you have to get, you know, adjust to. And so I think that's why a lot of people don't do it because they're like, well, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do this 20 [00:18:00] times a day. I'm not gonna like, Change my, change my routine and like change the way I am in front of people.
Uh, so often, um, so it is like a sacrifice in a way. And so I, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but, um, it can. It can be so you just got to navigate that does that make sense? Like I don't know that's been my experience, you know like nobody likes somebody pulling out their phone in the middle of a conversation and making a note, you know, or like And personally, we probably don't like, you know I'm like being on the cusp of falling asleep and then pulling out your phone and like having to You know look at blue light and record something So it's just it's just one of those things where it's not it's not It's not like the easiest thing to do all the time.
So it is, it is a skill set to kind of cultivate. But it
[00:18:44] Chenell Basilio: does make your life easier when, uh, you actually want to go ahead and write something. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:50] Dylan Redekop: It's a, it's, I think it's a habit thing too, right? Like just getting in the habit of like when an idea comes to mind, recording it somehow. Not being rude to people here with maybe, but just like, sorry, you know, [00:19:00] one sec.
I need, I just had a really great idea. Something you said, whatever. I need to record this. Um, please don't hate me.
[00:19:06] Eddie Shleyner: Right. Oh,
[00:19:10] Chenell Basilio: that's funny. Um, yeah. Alright, so I guess for the third one that I found was growth loops, um, and you're like really big into LinkedIn. You said you started it around 2020 because you had more time in the morning to write.
Um, but one thing I did pull out was like the growth loops that you were essentially sharing an article in your email and then at the bottom you'd say, head over to LinkedIn, comment here. And then on LinkedIn you're sharing. Are you sending people back to the website? So it's just this nice little circle that you had going on.
Um, do you think that really helped with your LinkedIn growth in the early days?
[00:19:44] Eddie Shleyner: Yes, I do. I think those, I think those are a big part of it. Um, because you know, you, you were essentially kind of a, you were amplifying every, every post and exposing it to so many more people. Um, and then, [00:20:00] yeah, driving those, those new folks, uh, back to, to my website.
And then, you know, the website is basically built for, you know, it was designed to get people into the newsletter. So out of all the CTAs on there, probably 95 of them are, 95 percent of them are, are, uh, you know, asking people to join the newsletter. And then, so every time you send it and, you know, execute the growth loop, the next time around the next newsletter, you have more, Subscribers to, to help amplify your posts.
And, um, I do, I do think there's diminishing returns with that. And, you know, over time, um, it became less and less necessary. And so I might kind of, uh, be weaning off of that, uh, strategy, but, um, certainly when I first started. Given the landscape of LinkedIn at the time and everything, it was, uh, it was a fruitful thing.
[00:20:55] Chenell Basilio: Your website is definitely built for conversion. Um, the social proof on there is [00:21:00] kind of insane. You have like endless testimonials. In a bad
[00:21:04] Eddie Shleyner: way, in a bad way.
[00:21:08] Chenell Basilio: I'm wondering like, so for just the testimonials on the newsletter, are you like reaching out to people specifically? Or is there like an automated?
Like after they've been on your email list for two months, you ask them for a testimonial or something, or you just get those inbound?
[00:21:20] Eddie Shleyner: In the very beginning, uh, the first year that I was sending out the newsletter, that was like the focus of the newsletter, was to collect testimonials. So, I would, I think there was a link in there that said, you know, leave a, leave a review.
Get a backlink and that was kind of my offer to folks because I would say hey, you know I'll link back to your LinkedIn or your or your website if you if you leave a testimonial about the about the blog and So well, it definitely worked for first subscribers definitely work for subscribers and then you know you know if I You know, [00:22:00] anybody else on the, on the homepage, like this quote unquote, like featured like testimonials and those are, those are folks that I've worked with in the past, uh, that maybe have garnered audiences of their own or, or, um, you know, if, uh, you know, they just, they just have a presence in the industry and so I just asked them.
Sometimes more than once, probably. Gotta ask, you gotta ask for them.
[00:22:27] Dylan Redekop: How much do you think those testimonials have, have, um, played a part in, in your growth and in, in growing the newsletter? And getting even getting clients to
[00:22:36] Eddie Shleyner: sure. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to quantify it, but I think they're, they've certainly done a lot for me.
I mean, it's, uh, it's just this instant credibility, um, you know, that, that people see, and then, you know, I'm sure most subscribers will read something, uh, that I've written before subscribing to the newsletter, but. Um, you know, with, with this kind of testimonial wall, so to speak, it's almost like it's almost not necessary if you don't, if you don't want to, [00:23:00] you know, you just know that you just know that there, you know, there's this, there's this abundant, you know, credibility associated with the, with the newsletter, I guess.
So, um, it's kind of like going, it's like going to Amazon, you know, and seeing a product that has, you know, hundreds of, of five star reviews, um, you know, it's just this kind of like length implies strength, uh, heuristic at, at work. And, uh, so I, I give it a lot of credit. I give it a lot of credit. I think.
[00:23:28] Chenell Basilio: Nice. I noticed you had a bunch in the, uh, beginning of the book too. You have like four pages of testimonials. I love it. It's so good. I'm like, yep, here he goes again. Yeah.
[00:23:40] Eddie Shleyner: It's probably what a lot of people are saying. I don't know how to feel about it anymore.
[00:23:46] Chenell Basilio: Well, it definitely stands out. So I think it's a good thing.
[00:23:48] Dylan Redekop: We haven't even gotten to the book yet. So we'll have to touch on that too, before we, before we, uh, end here.
[00:23:54] Chenell Basilio: I know. It's a good one. Eddie credits a lot of his subscriber growth to having tons of testimonials on his landing pages. It's hard enough [00:24:00] to get people to your website. You kind of want all of those people that you can to actually convert and subscribe.
Eddie did this manually at first by messaging people, offering a backlink. But you can actually use a tool like Senja to make this easy and people can just use the form, submit their testimonial with their image, a video if they want to, and you're all good to go. Senja makes this easy to display them on your website and in your emails as well.
You can get started for free over at Growthinreverse. com slash Senja. That's growthinreverse. com slash S E N J A. And now back to our conversation with Eddie. One of the things that really stood out to me was this take sabbaticals thing. And I'm so curious because there are so many creators who like go through burnout and they're just like on the content hamster wheel and you know, writing week after week.
And I, I saw that you took sabbaticals, like. couple months off every year. And I was like, this guy's brilliant. Like, no one has the balls to just like, sit there and be like, I'm going to take the next two months off. And that's it. Good luck.
[00:24:58] Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I [00:25:00] mean, I just, you know, I, I need to focus. I need to focus on, on a project to really get the best out of myself and get, and get the best results, I think, and, um, that's super hard to do when you're, you know, trying to manage marketing on social media and, um, trying to manage writing the, you know, a new newsletter every, every week or a couple of times a week, even so, um, you know, if I have a big project that I know is going to Um, uh, you know, pay off in the end, and then I'll definitely take, I'll definitely take a couple months just to, uh, You know, it's not like a sabbatical is kind of, it's misleading because, you know, it conjures images of like being on a beach with the Corona.
That's not what I'm doing. I'm just, I'm just not, I'm just not marketing and I'm just not present. I think online as much. And, um, you know, so if I, if, if I create a course, I take, You know, three months off and I, [00:26:00] and I work on that course. Um, and then I launch it, um, and then, cause that's another thing is it's like, if you make a product, you don't just gotta make the product, you gotta make the, you gotta create the launch plan as well and actually launch it.
So it's, it's a lot of work. Um, same with the book, you know, The book was, you know, a real labor and, um, probably took me longer than three months, so it wasn't like I was, I wasn't around for the six or seven months that I was making it, but I was, it was definitely a slower, slower time for me online. Um, but I think, you know, a lot of people, they can't imagine themselves doing it because they see social media, Or their presence on social media is like this, um, this proxy for their success, but really it's a false proxy, you know, especially with everything that's, you know, all the pods and everything, all, all the ways to manipulate your, um, your, your presence there, uh, on LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever.
It's a [00:27:00] false proxy for how you're doing. I think the real proxy is, you know, how to, how are people engaging with your newsletter and then how are, you know, how are your sales? You know, how are you selling things? Um, and, uh, so it's just, it's just the matter of kind of like training your brain to realize what's actually important.
What's actually, um, you know, moving the needle for you and your business versus, you know, the, the perception. Um, and sometimes perception is important, especially in the beginning. Like you have to, like, like I said, there has to be that, that initial, like, uh, credibility when people see you. Um, but after a certain point.
You know, you reach a threshold and you're like, okay, well, what am I, what am I, what am I going to do? I'm just going to kill myself for another year to, uh, achieve this kind of growth when I've already, you know, built a newsletter, built a business. Shouldn't I be focusing on that? I don't know. That's, that's kind of how I feel.
[00:27:59] Dylan Redekop: And do you, when [00:28:00] you take these, um, these breaks to focus on projects, are you setting any automations up? Are you still publishing the newsletter? Does that all just kind of like, no, I'm done. None of that keeps going. How does that work?
[00:28:13] Eddie Shleyner: I will be now. I wasn't for a long time. I just never, I never had any automations.
I was at MailChimp for 10 years. I never had any automations set up. I never had any, um, Everything that everything that was happening was being I was doing and okay, so, you know I'm kind of kicking myself now because it was I probably could have gotten a lot more done and you know I kind of I probably could have been You know, maybe not more productive but more You know, I could have balanced like growth and craft at the same time better But actually, yeah, I asked Chanel if Kit was a good place to go, and she [00:29:00] had some good feedback about that.
So I went to Kit, and they have the most amazing, Platform for automations and sequences and, um,
you know, all those growth lovers. So, uh, I will be, I will be doing more, more automated marketing, I think, moving forward, but, um, hopefully still keeping it, you know, I like, I hesitate to say authentic, but like, hopefully still keeping it that, that way, giving it that feeling. Cause I think that that's a lot of what, uh, people appreciated.
Uh, at least from the feedback that I got about my newsletter.
[00:29:41] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I don't think automations make it any less authentic as long as you're doing the same quality of work and it's still you. It's not like somebody else publishing it or anything like that. So right. I think you'll be all right with that.
Would you like repurpose content while you were taking these sabbaticals or like rerun something you wrote three years ago or whatnot? Yeah, [00:30:00]
[00:30:00] Eddie Shleyner: all
[00:30:00] Chenell Basilio: the time all the time
[00:30:02] Eddie Shleyner: I mean I you know, I Seinfeld is in syndication. I'm not Seinfeld, but you know, great content is always being syndicated. And so I, I've always felt like, Hey, if I, if I produce something that I'm really proud of that has, um, you know, moved a lot of people in the past, uh, why not, why not syndicate it and put it out there more often?
Cause you know, only a fraction of my audience sees every, every post. Exactly. I mean, If I have a hundred thousand people on LinkedIn or a hundred whatever it is, like it 119, a hundred , thanks. Still 119,000 people on LinkedIn. I, you know, I think maybe 10% of my total audience sees a, sees every post, so that to me is just kind of like a no brainer.
[00:30:53] Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I think there's a pressure on a lot of creators, newsletter publishers, et cetera, to like always be writing something new, coming [00:31:00] up with new content, but. If you have this backlog of content you've already created, why like, yeah, I don't know, beat yourself up and stress out about, you know, putting out a new, a new hit every week when you already have some, some in something in the greatest hits catalog, right?
[00:31:13] Eddie Shleyner: Right. I think it's just a matter of like, you know, some people conflate, um, creating with marketing, you know, like just be like, uh, you don't, you can't create something every day or even every week sometimes, you know, like it takes a long time, I think, depending on what it is, but. Creating something, um, you know, you just have to be so thoughtful and intentional and, you know, to do it really well, it takes time and, and, and effort and, um, uh, you know, there's, there's just has to be sometimes a buffer between the things that you make.
Uh, but when you're marketing, I mean, that, that's how I see it. You know, the syndicated content thing, you know, it was just, I'm just marketing the brand. I'm just marketing, uh, the newsletter, trying to get more people [00:32:00] in it so that I can show them the new things that I create. So I think there's like this, uh, yeah, people conflate the two.
And, and again, that's not a, you know, that's, it's just, They're not the same thing. So, you know, uh, don't do that because, uh, that is, you are gonna burn yourself out that way. You know, if every time you share something, you've got to make something, you know, that's crazy.
[00:32:24] Dylan Redekop: I think it's a good message. Nice.
Thank you for sharing that.
[00:32:25] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, agreed. As someone who writes deep dives like this and feels bad when I can't put one out. Thank you.
[00:32:34] Eddie Shleyner: Every week. You are seen, you are seen Chanel.
[00:32:39] Chenell Basilio: Appreciate it. I actually realized two days ago or yesterday that I missed something in this deep dive. Um, you launched on product hunt pretty, I guess it was pretty early on.
Um, I totally missed this. And I was like, wow, okay, I missed it
[00:32:56] Eddie Shleyner: too. I missed it too. I didn't know. I didn't notice that that [00:33:00] wasn't a good. I mean, literally everything else was so don't beat yourself up.
[00:33:06] Chenell Basilio: No, I think it's interesting. Um, I'm curious. Like, was that a good. What use of your time? Cause I know product hunt launches can take up quite a bit of headspace and marketing and that kind of thing.
[00:33:16] Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I thought it was great. I thought it was, um, I actually made a, I actually recorded my entire process and put it into, um, like what I called like a, like a micro course or basically like a long article. It was very similar to like a, like a deep dive kind of structure that you have and, um, I made it available for folks to.
Uh, it was like a lead magnet for anybody that subscribed, but then I was getting so much, uh, positive feedback about it that I just, I made it, I packaged it up and I, and I, uh, and I started selling it, but now I don't even know where, where I'm selling it [00:34:00] anymore. Um,
[00:34:01] Chenell Basilio: I think it was on gum road because I found it afterwards.
Yeah.
[00:34:05] Eddie Shleyner: So, you know, I, I don't market it at all. I, I, you know, I don't really think about it that much, but every now and then like a sale pops up. I'm like, Oh cool. I'll just,
[00:34:14] Chenell Basilio: it's so interesting. Yeah.
[00:34:16] Eddie Shleyner: It was a good use of time because it taught me something new. It taught me how to, how to launch something on product hunt.
Um, and, uh, again, it was just, it was just another credibility lever that I could pull. You know, whenever I needed to.
[00:34:28] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I, I, it just looks like so much effort and I saw, you said you got 906 subscribers from it and I was like, that's a lot, but it wasn't worth, like, I feel like those things take like 80 hours to like put together.
Is that? Oh, yeah,
[00:34:43] Eddie Shleyner: I'm sure. I'm sure it was a lot. I don't remember exactly how much time, but the 906 subscribers is, is great. Um, but really I think like my takeaways were just like, okay, how do I, you know, How do I think about very good [00:35:00] copy? You know, how do I package very good copy up for an audience of net new people and explain it to them?
You know, that was, I think that was really the benefit of it for me because it forced me to think about my product and brand, um, probably in a way that I really haven't, uh, hadn't before. And, um, you know, so, so, you know, just the, the clarity that it gave me was really refreshing.
[00:35:30] Chenell Basilio: Interesting. I like that take on it.
Because usually you just look at like the numbers and you're like, Oh, that's cool. But I could see how that would almost be a forcing function for you to kind of You know, put together the words for what your brand is and what people can expect. Exactly.
[00:35:44] Eddie Shleyner: Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's like the, it's, it's the Rory suffer on this other one, the kind of take on AI where he's like, yeah, like, Hey, I can, you know, it can write your, your ads for you, but the real value in creating an ad is the process that you go through [00:36:00] to create that ad.
You know, how you think about the product, how you think about the market, how you think about the offer, you know, All of that, um, will help you ultimately create the right message, you know? And it's really hard to, if not impossible, to like prompt an AI to do that for you off the cuff. Like, you need to go through the hard, difficult, slow work of thinking about What you're selling, uh, in order to really to create the best message for it.
Yeah. That's what happened to me here with, um, with the product out launch. Plus, yeah. And, and so, yeah. And all the subscribers and, you know, having, you know, having a pop up when you Google and stuff like that, I think that's all a very good byproduct. Um, but yeah, the, the A1 was, was like, okay, what, what am I selling here?
Um, and how does it inform, like, you know, how I market going forward?
[00:36:54] Chenell Basilio: I'm curious about VGC plus, because I heard you bring this up in so many podcasts and [00:37:00] I'm like, where did this thing go? Dude, how many, how
[00:37:02] Eddie Shleyner: many of my podcasts have you listened to? I feel, I get, I get so, uh, my, okay, go, let's keep, let's keep going.
Sorry. Cause I know that this, I know that this deep dive took, uh, took a lot of research, but like now, now I'm like super self conscious of how, how much, uh, how much research you've done, but go on, go on.
[00:37:28] Chenell Basilio: No, I was just curious. Like you. I don't know in the one episode you were like super excited about it And then I like didn't hear about it again, and I was like wait, where did this thing go?
And then I looked and I don't know there's not much evidence of it on the internet,
[00:37:42] Eddie Shleyner: right? well because it because it was just That that's what we were talking about That was like the I was like a burnout trap because you really did I really did have to create something new every single week and something [00:38:00] demonstrably better.
I felt like for that, for that community. Then what I was putting out on on in the newsletter and on LinkedIn because it was paid So like I had to come up with something fresh Every week sometimes multiple times a week. I think I said I would like put out a new post every two or three days So I like totally over delivered on what I what I what I'm capable of doing.
You know what I mean? Or any
[00:38:25] Chenell Basilio: human?
[00:38:26] Eddie Shleyner: Well, I mean, you know The thing is, it was just me and I was at the same time I was running, you know, the consulting business and the copywriting business and marketing on, on, uh, on, on LinkedIn and Twitter and writing a newsletter. And now I take on this, this kind of new paid community.
Um, and with that also comes all of the interactions inside of that paid community answering all of those comments, like, You don't want to leave people hanging. So it was just, it was so much and I felt [00:39:00] so much pressure every few days to like, to make something new and make something great. And like, um, so it was just, it was, it was really tough.
It was burning me out and I just kind of, I think you used a certain term. Sunset it, I sunset it, I sunset it big time. Um, and maybe, maybe I'll come back and maybe when the time is right and I have the infrastructure for it, like I'll do something. I'll do something like that again. Um, but it was just, it was the wrong time.
It wasn't the right time to do it. I, I, we just had our, we just had, um, our first baby. It was, there was so much, there was so much going on. I was like,
[00:39:42] Chenell Basilio: how long did you have it running for?
[00:39:44] Eddie Shleyner: Uh, maybe a year.
[00:39:47] Chenell Basilio: Okay.
[00:39:48] Eddie Shleyner: Maybe a little less. Wow. Something like that. Not, not, not, uh, uh, not a negligible amount of time.
Like enough for me to like, have a [00:40:00] have a total nervous breakdown. Like, I can't do this divorce, we're stopping this. No, no. It, it wasn't a nervous breakdown, but it was, it was a, it was tough, but it was a, it was a timing thing, you know what I mean? Chanel, it was just a, it was a timing thing and I just didn't have all my ducks in a row and I, I, I launched it right when I, right when I left G two.
Okay. Yeah, I think in hindsight, of course, is, is a much was, would have been a much better product to focus on.
[00:40:25] Dylan Redekop: Did you feel maybe a little bit like, Hey, I left my, you know, corporate job and now I feel this pressure to like earn revenue, making, you know, a reliable income and I've got to do like a. And keep my consulting business going and the newsletter, everything like that.
It was part of their reason.
[00:40:41] Eddie Shleyner: Hell yeah, absolutely. You gotta make a living. I gotta make a living. So, um, that was, yeah, that was just like the first thing that I jumped on. And, um, but of course would have been better because it probably would have been as much, if not less, uh, effort, you know, with a course you make it once and then you just, [00:41:00] the effort is in marketing it.
And,
[00:41:03] Dylan Redekop: uh, I mean, you've got free microcourses too, which are like in and of themselves, like super valuable that are just lead magnets. So I'm really curious to, uh, for you to share a little bit about, you know, sort of what is driving revenue for you?
[00:41:16] Eddie Shleyner: Well, yeah. So I can give you like the percentage breakdown and, and, but yeah, we don't need numbers.
Right. But, but to be clear, I think, I think it's, it's the percentages are estimates and very rough ones at that because like, they're all kind of levers that I can pull in a way. You know, like if I, if. Basically, I make money with products, right? So the course and the book, and then sponsorships of the newsletter, and then copywriting and consulting, and if I market or advertise one more than the other, that becomes kind of the driving source of revenue.
Um, but I would say, yeah, historically it's products, like the course and the book are probably 40 percent of [00:42:00] my revenue, and then sponsorships are 30%, and then You know, client work consulting is another 30%, but ultimately I'd like to, you know, keep on productizing the business and the brand. And, and, uh, I'd like it for, um, products and sponsorships to bring in more and more money and, uh, maybe pare down the client work.
I don't think I'll ever stop taking on clients because of such keeps you fresh. It's great experience. Like it keeps you thinking like a copywriter and a marketer. So, um, I think. It's extremely valuable to, uh, write copy for other brands besides your own, you know, I just enjoy, I enjoy the process of making products and, and, and marketing those products and selling them.
So I think I'll keep on going down that path.
[00:42:45] Dylan Redekop: Are you doing this all by yourself?
[00:42:47] Eddie Shleyner: Uh, I am, uh, the creative part. I am, I'm, I'm not doing the, you know, the backend business administration, uh, by myself. I have a finance manager that, that handles that for me. Cause I'm very, [00:43:00] I'm not talented at all at that. Uh, so, you know, that, that part of the business is, is taken care of, but the creative work is, uh, is all me at the moment.
[00:43:08] Dylan Redekop: What about like sponsorship outreach and stuff like that? Or is it mostly all inbound?
[00:43:11] Eddie Shleyner: It's, it's mostly inbound. I have an ad in the, in the newsletter, you know, to make that even easier. And to make that also better for, uh, sponsors, I, I'm going to encourage kind of like more longterm sponsorships. So instead of having, you know, one per newsletter, uh, I'll have one poor per quarter, you know, one sponsor per quarter.
And, um, that's ultimately gonna, gonna yield a better result for, for everybody. Because, you know, if you go to a radio station and you asked to buy one ad. They won't sell you one ad, you know, they'll sell you seven ads or 15 ads. You know that they want you to, they want that, that, um, that recurring message because the more people hear it, the more likely it is they'll, they'll, uh, they'll act on it.
So same concept.
[00:43:55] Dylan Redekop: I think a lot of people kind of, um, you know, talk down on traditional media and, you know, like [00:44:00] magazines print is all dead, but they did things. They definitely did some things right for sure. And I think advertising is one huge lesson that, you know, people in our space, the creative, the digital creative, um, can take away is like, yeah, they would never, you'd never buy a, like, I mean, rarely would you just buy like one newspaper insert ad, um, or one magazine insert ad or one television ad, even it's usually sold in bundles and packages in your, if you do happen to buy the one off ad, it's probably not gonna perform very well.
Like you need that, that repetition, right?
[00:44:33] Eddie Shleyner: That's exactly right. So hopefully I can pull that off. I have, I'm just saying I have in the past and it, and it's, it's been, it's been great. So. You know, because it's, it's less, it's less work on my end, it's less work to kind of like update the newsletter every time and, and to like have those conversations about what the offer is and where's this, this ad going, what does the landing page look like?
Because I want everybody that advertises to be successful. So I do [00:45:00] help with, you know, writing the ads and, and, and, you know, uh, making sure that the, the congruence between the ad and the landing page is there. Like I am involved in that. Um, So it'd be great to just, uh, you know, have a, have one big project per quarter instead of, you know, 12 little ones.
[00:45:19] Dylan Redekop: Well, I think the recurring, the recurring nature of it is easier just for everybody, right? Like the advertiser is going to see better returns and you don't have to stress out about finding a new advertiser every week or every, every month. Few weeks or month even. So it of sense. So
[00:45:33] Chenell Basilio: as for what's working right now, I'm curious, um, this book is awesome, by the way, I was very surprised because usually when people will just take newsletters and throw them into a book, I'm like a little hesitant.
Cause I'm like, is that really going to be like a good thing? But this is, it like flows really, really nicely. You did a very good job with this. It
[00:45:54] Eddie Shleyner: was one of the things that made the process so long as like going back and editing all everything that I've [00:46:00] written. To not only kind of one voice it, but to make sure that if the, the order that I put it in would flow, you know, if you want it to read it front to back.
So I appreciate you saying that.
[00:46:11] Chenell Basilio: Yeah, it's, it's great. Um, are you seeing subscribers from it? I know you have like a QR code in the front and all that stuff. Have you been able to like track that you're getting subscribers or you see a uptick or anything?
[00:46:21] Eddie Shleyner: I have not, I haven't tracked the QR code, like a, like a Momo.
So, uh, I don't know how many people are coming in from the book. Um, That's a good point. I have to, I'll have to talk to my, my kit account manager. But, uh, um, yeah, I, you know, I get, you know, anecdotally, I get emails from people saying that, hey, they just forgot They were looking on Amazon for copywriting books and saw mine and then they went and, um, subscribed and then they bought the course and so there's, you could see anecdotally again, like the, the, the kind of the, the path that people take.
And, um, I think that's why I [00:47:00] focused on marketing and launching the book for so long and kind of, uh, you know, took a, took a hit on maybe some of the sponsorship revenue that I could have, that I could have had from, um, um, Earlier in the year, uh, because I was just kind of just promoting the book and promoting the wait list and making sure that people were on it, um, so that I can, you know, more or less ensure that there was a, that the launch was good and, and that it would become kind of a fixture.
And like the copywriting, the copy, like the copywriting keyword on, on Amazon so that people can find it organically.
[00:47:40] Chenell Basilio: That's gotta feel cool that people are just like finding your newsletter via a book on Amazon. That's
[00:47:44] Eddie Shleyner: so
[00:47:44] Dylan Redekop: cool.
[00:47:45] Chenell Basilio: I mean,
[00:47:46] Eddie Shleyner: that was, that was the idea. That was the idea. So I'm glad it's working out.
[00:47:51] Dylan Redekop: I'm, I'm really curious what, what you learned from, you know, going from this digital space to publishing a physical copy of something like, do you have any like [00:48:00] Key learnings that you took away from the experience or maybe something like you were totally surprised by that. You didn't expect
[00:48:05] Eddie Shleyner: Well, I didn't expect how hard it was going to be honestly I I thought that it was I thought that it was going to be you know, I I took a bunch of I took my best of and and put them together and that was going to be the book, but um, really it was uh It was extremely arduous and, and kind of a form of torture at some point, you know, because it was like I, you know, I had to go, I, I had, you know, a lot of the some, you know, some of the book is from five.
I've written, I wrote it 567 years ago and I had to go back and my writing style has changed since then. And I've changed since then. And, um, so I had to go back in one voice everything. So that was the hardest part by far is going back and, um, Editing everything and, and again, making sure that, you know, it flowed in the order that I wanted it to and, um, you know, that was, that just took so much longer than I thought it would.
And, uh, I was really, [00:49:00] you know, in hindsight, really naive to think that I was just going to throw this thing together. Um, but then also coming up with the concept for the book. The original title was going to be Becoming a Copywriter. Believe it or not. And like the cover was going to be totally, totally different.
It wasn't going to reflect the branding at all. A very good copy. Um, and you know, I worked with a really talented cover designer, Zoe Norvell, and, and, um, she was just, So nice to me because I was I was my going back and forth with her like was I'm sure she's I don't know if she's experienced anything like that before because literally she's she changed.
She she got me the cover and I loved it. And then I sent it around to some, uh, some of my mentors and some folks that, that I should have tapped a lot sooner. And they were like, Eddie, like, this is the wrong way to go. Probably. You know what I mean? Like, this doesn't speak to current subscribers. It doesn't speak [00:50:00] to anybody that doesn't know you yet.
Like, this is just going to be floating in a void, you know? And, um, so then I just, I just put the cover together myself in like 20 minutes, believe it or not. After like weeks and weeks of work, I just, I just scratched it and I just put the cover together and I was like, Hey, can you just make, like, make this all align and this is going to be the cover.
So yeah, huge learning there.
[00:50:25] Dylan Redekop: Wow.
[00:50:26] Eddie Shleyner: Wow. Yeah.
[00:50:27] Dylan Redekop: And was it self published?
[00:50:29] Eddie Shleyner: It was, yeah, self published. So, and that was another thing is just coordinating that process. Was a job in and of itself. And, um, just everything took longer. Everything took longer than I thought it would. Man, I'm like getting PTSD right now, thinking about it.
It's like triggering me. So I don't know. We don't have to
[00:50:48] Dylan Redekop: ask you if you, if you would, uh, do it again anytime soon.
[00:50:51] Eddie Shleyner: I would know. I absolutely would. And I want to, I want to continue like putting out volumes, but I just know so much, so much [00:51:00] now and, um, so much more than when I started. So it's all about, you know.
Organizing it the way that I, the way that it needs to be organized from the get go. Um, and that saves so much time and just being intentional as you, you know, as I'm putting out new content about, okay, where's this going to go and how's this going to fit in the next book?
[00:51:21] Chenell Basilio: That's awesome. Um, so after, I mean, now that you've written this book, it's out in the world, published, uh, what's next?
Like how are you going to continue this brand, your growth, all that stuff, or
[00:51:32] Eddie Shleyner: are you
[00:51:32] Chenell Basilio: going to take two months off first or?
[00:51:34] Eddie Shleyner: No, I think I already did that. I think I already did that, uh, after the book. Um, but I think it's just going to keep on going, you know, I'm on a new platform now, like I said, so. Um, I'm playing around with all of the, um, the features there and, and creating sequences and creating, um, automations that, um, I think would be delightful, uh, for people.
Um, so I'm, I'm working on [00:52:00] that, uh, but also just, you know, uh, making a real conscious effort to, um, be productive in this, in this latter part of the year and, and going into 2025. Um, because I wasn't really that. productive as far as like net new work in the beginning of 2024. So I'm just going to keep on sending out newsletters and, um, you know, doing, doing my best to improve each issue.
And, uh, I really do think, I really do think that's enough, you know, as long as you kind of focus on, uh, putting out your best work and putting quality first, uh, um, everything will kind of fall into place.
[00:52:36] Chenell Basilio: And like you said, just write stuff that you're interested in. Other people will find it and likely be interested as well.
So,
[00:52:43] Eddie Shleyner: yeah, well, I think write stuff that. moves you. Like, you know, you have to have a, an audience, a specific type of person where I'm writing about copywriting, I'm writing about creativity. I have to stay in that space. I think the important part is write something that moves you, compels you, makes you feel good.
[00:53:00] Something that you're interested in, something that doesn't bore you as you read it back. That's a good barometer of the quality of your work.
[00:53:06] Chenell Basilio: Wow. The way he approaches stuff is just so refreshing. What do you think Dylan?
[00:53:10] Dylan Redekop: Yeah. His whole vibe is just mellow, Super approachable. I love that he takes like months off at a time to focus on work and get away from algorithms and stuff like that.
And I think more of us could probably benefit from that kind of thing.
[00:53:24] Chenell Basilio: Yeah. As we head into the holidays and the busy season with family and stuff, maybe it's a good reminder to allow ourselves to take some time away and actually enjoy life.
[00:53:32] Dylan Redekop: There are worlds outside of work. Algorithms and internet.
[00:53:37] Chenell Basilio: If you want to follow along with Eddie's stuff, you can find him over on LinkedIn or Twitter, or head over to very good copy.
com and subscribe to his newsletter. It's great. Or if books are your thing, you can check out the very good copy book, wherever you get your books, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all the good places. We'll see you next [00:54:00] time.